Non-Human Intelligence (The Melting Pot)

[jaded]

Completely a melting pot of UAP/UFO/Aliens/Orbs/Consiousness/gravity propulsion/unknown physics/time travel you name it like spaghetti sauce "it's in there". What's now being refered to as Non-Human Intelligence formerly known as "The Control System" or the Phenomena has us casting a wide net trying to make sense of all manner of high strangeness in a effort to see the bigger picture. 

 In my ramblings I'm open to hearing intelligent discourse on all manner of unrelated things as a stress reliever to daily life. The higher above my "pay grade" the better. Call it escapism sans the video game console. In the UAP/UFO NHI arena there's been a deficit of using philosophical constructs to assist in defiining a bigger picture. Turns out we have the tools & someone finally made a decent stab at it giving us a "beginning vocabulary" to frame the current mess.

James Madden's Book "Unidentified Flying Hyperobject; UFO's Philosophy and the End Of The World" He asks us to consider UFOs as “objects” spread out in a way that transcends our ordinary senses, as well as our rather limiting notions of space and time. We only ever encounter these objects (or this one object, depending on the realities we have yet to perceive) from within what he labels our “Umwelt,” or world perspective, which is necessarily limiting.
The reality of flying saucers, tic tacs, and illuminated spheres — along with all the other denizens of Vallee’s Magonia — may be a kind of encounter, communication or psychic manipulation from a wider realm of reality, what he calls the “Uber Umwelt.”
https://medium.com/@jfaulk/the-next-majo...57c47431de

I caught his interview on Whitley Strieber's Dreamland YT channel. Madden went into much greater depth about a NHI poking us or trying to communicate with us in a "clumsy" mish-mash of events unavoidable due to the massive divide between itself & humanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVzGGYLnaNA&t=2s

[quintessentone]

 In my ramblings I'm open to hearing intelligent discourse on all manner of unrelated things as a stress reliever to daily life. The higher above my "pay grade" the better. Call it escapism sans the video game console. In the UAP/UFO NHI arena there's been a deficit of using philosophical constructs to assist in defiining a bigger picture. Turns out we have the tools & someone finally made a decent stab at it giving us a "beginning vocabulary" to frame the current mess.

Yes, as with that age-old question "What is reality?" we don't have the vocabulary yet, so I see Madden attempts to create new words to encompass our states of being or rather not being. We have encountered this vocabulary problem when discussing the 'bigger picture' metaphysical concepts as well, that being, we need to create new combo words to describe realities beyond our one dimensional grasp of what some people believe to be only a physical reality.

I don't know what I can offer that others' have not already offered up, but I might throw in a new word here and there to try and explain my personal reality in the UAP/UFO contactee arena.

As for my spaghetti sauce, that 'everything is in it' quote speaks the truth, so my newly made up word for my spaghetti sauce is kitchensinkspahetsauce. Hey, I'm new at this; too many words, but it fits.

If Madden believes this:

“Our narcissistic pretensions, with the rise of digital media, have indeed trapped us in a self-imposed simulation, though one that really signifies nothing. That is why we can no longer hear what Magonia tells us; we cannot see anything beyond simulacrum.”

It sort of goes against his philosophy, as he, as we here, and as many others are able to see beyond the simulacrum. I don't see him saying anything new.

We just can't prove what we see or know to be true beyond this physical reality, yet.

We, humanity, do seem to be irretrievably lost.

[Video: https://youtu.be/kVQKDIVV85U?si=lIZRfTJrFgZIkBeT]

Thomas 19:   Jesus said, “Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.  If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you.
For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death.”

https://www.77thpearl.com/thomas-19-five-trees/

Jesus touched on this topic long ago.

[Maxmars]

I too invested some time in this video... but was a bit confused at first.  Due to my own hasty inferences, I expected Prof. Madden's interview to address UFO phenomena, or perhaps the theory of "Alien Intelligence."

While it did mention those things, the substance of the discussion was Prof. Madden crafting an argument highlighting the manner in which humans "tokenize" their reality for discussion.  How perspective frameworks approached from a presumptive aim of 'settling and communicating" understanding can be inconsequential and inappropriate because of our lack of understanding, and perhaps even our very inability to understand.

His own "tokenization" of understanding includes the use of terminology.   "Umwelt" is a transplant of a biological concept developed to accommodate the operation of capabilities within the physical limitations of any creature ... for this case, in humans, "perspective" or "perceived zeitgeist" might have sufficed.

I note, without apology, that his presence accompanies the publication of a new book.  I do not begrudge him that fact.  Perhaps it serves in his mind as a primer to the work, which I expect is a well-crafted expansion of the notion that some of mankind's most difficult challenges in the future may have to do with embracing change and accepting that there are some things we simply cannot understand... until we collectively learn more as a species.

However, there are arguments (not necessarily dissent) that must have a voice in the discussion... some of which will be uncomfortable for a host to offer a guest speaker during a 'marketing' effort.  The host mase a valiant effort to support the author's contribution; but offered no challenges... which I find noteworthy.

While I appreciate his message, and the fact that he pursues a valuable discussion, I felt his message was somewhat overtly determined to rest upon the notion that people simply "can't" understand that which they haven't experienced.  Philosophy, and the accumulation of perspectives of many well-regarded speakers can lead to excellent explanations of the nature of life.  Examples abound to demonstrate the concept.  But I have difficulty embracing any perspective that deterministically describes accepting any aspect of human reality as "beyond understanding."

Humans, if no other species, have a drive and need to consolidate and resolve 'gaps' in understanding.  The drive is so deep, and the need is so pressing that we actually 'cooperate' to eliminate them...

He makes a good case that we should continuously reassess our tendency to imbue all mystery with "human terminology and paradigms" that simply may not apply.  This seems wise.  But I feel he is making a case to "find the endpoint of our understanding" and simply accept that as a permanent limitation.  I feel that is where we must focus and apply more of our intellectual energy to that "endpoint."

With all respect to our friend and member, jaded, in my opinion this is more 'philosophical' content than it is about UFOs and aliens.   I thank jaded for making this thread.  That doesn't detract from the content itself, by any means.

It's an interesting take on how people struggle with meta-information, including about UFOs and aliens... but it is just as valid to apply to other paradigm-challenging topics.

[jaded]

OMG! (thud)
Really didn't think anyone would reply much less check out the video. You both make very valid points. That Madden was touting his book I tuned out, for many interviews there's always someone selling something. It's just backround noise to me. 

Aside Madden naming behaviors he's seen around ufo/uap/NHI in humans was neat, my interest was very much his idea's on how a NHI might be reaching out to us. Which would be very inelegantly.

Personally this cracks me up, since it's been a long running joke that when a NHI (whatever variant)shows up it ALWAYS gets several little things absurdly wrong. Every.Single.Time.
 Like putting anything into context would kill it? Heheheheh!!
(cue the participation prize? facepalm)
Yes I'm mocking the NHI, No you don't get hit by lightening for being a smart @**. Because the chasm between us & it is huge & a uphill battle, because contact is hit & miss, usually pointless from our perspective, might as well bring the humor & make some popcorn. 
This is gonna take awhile.

[Maxmars]

OMG! (thud)

...

Because the chasm between us & it is huge & a uphill battle, because contact is hit & miss, usually pointless from our perspective, might as well bring the humor & make some popcorn. 

This is gonna take awhile.

I whole heartedly respect your answer, and at the risk if appearing disingenuous. I have to say we are like-minded without doubt.

I often resist watching these videos... not because of the topic... but because of the "form" they must take.

The host offers a few challenges (at best) to draw out the thinking of the guest, often not at all.  Don't get me wrong, she made a valiant effort and pulled it off, but it seemed to me she failed to engage him on some key points that could have steered him towards UFOs and NHIs.  Which seemed appropriate to me, since the gist of the "wrapper," so to speak, was in the title on the web page ("The Next Major Work in Ufology?") and to a lesser extent even the book (“Unidentified Flying Hyperobject: UFOs, Philosophy, and The End of The World.”) ... which seems to imply a significant relationship to UFOs.

But the bulk of the dialogue did not feel "on point" enough for me, so it left me feeling unsatisfied. It may be that his book isn't really about UFOs/NHIs but is instead about us (human intelligences.)  He focuses on how the human paradigm, zeitgeist, or whatever functions as an impediment to understanding.  ((I believe he feels this would exist for the NHIs as well.))  "We simply can't know that which we simply don't know," I would paraphrase. I found myself inferring that this book is more of a psychological and philosophical approach to the matter of how humans can't predict the unknown.  UFO's sort of get lost in that argument.

Frankly, I hoped for bit more enthusiasm from the host to "wrangle the angle" or whatever it's called in the "pod cast" industry.

I don't really resent the plugging of his book. The truth is that it is "commerce" that drives the whole medium.  It's unavoidable, and I didn't find it "over the top."

In my case, they succeeded in making me "keep an eye out" for the book.  I intend to read it.  And although this is only his second book, I think it could have some very useful considerations and ideas, if nothing else.

I can't promise that I can muster the patience to do that again though... at least not for a while.  

[jaded]

Maxmars in all seriousness, despite the interviewer not going on a deep dive with Madden I've seen so many horrible interviewers that I tune them out unless they go crazy & never shut up to let the guest speak in which case I'm noping right off the channel. 

Totally agree the Title is clickbait. 
Altho not as blatant or intentional as others. Currently in this disclosure saga we've collectively gotten lucky with some seriously decent channels. After you wade thru the trash anyways. 

Lex Fridman 
Theories of Everything
Jesse Michels
UAP Studies
Steve Mera

To name a few. Madden at least didn't go the rabid believer route & tossed in legitimate issues we'd face internally as humans. He also pointed out our blind spot in accepting the significance of 
learning the hidden truths of the NHI or Phenomena.

[jaded]

Back to the grind!
 

I'm a fan of Curt Jaimungal's YT channel "Theory of Everything". Yes, as a matter of fact it can be way above my pay grade, but I plug along anyways. Anyhoo's Curt's guest Thomas Campbell altho older sparked my interest. His bio and more can be found here.
(Spoiler he's a Physicist)

https://www.my-big-toe.com

Not sure what I thought this YT was going to be about, but a scientific version of our material world as a simulation of "sorts" wasn't it. However, despite my past resistance to this thought/theory Campbell included enough metaphysic's to capture my attention before dropping the "simulation notion". I often go into YT's blind, kinda like it used to be changing TV channels to see what's on. 

Now I'm not 100% on board, since some aspects of this don't match up to what I've experienced. But since I made a rather public service announcement over at "the other place" that God fit the defination of a NHI and, AND managed to offend I really had to stay put, hear Campbell out cause I think we all saw this coming.(karma heheheheh!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiGt-FY6uQI&t=361s

Above is the original YT altho Campbell has his own YT channel and apparently is attempting experiments to definitively prove his theory's out. Looks like everyone is racing to a finish line with Nolan's SOL Org, Avi Loeb doing his thing plus a host of others. 

This is a shorter YT that cover's intention & EVP's, parallel processing, an other random questions fielded by Campbell. It's segmented so easy to skip questions you aren't interested in. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfrj0tG7l3c

[Maxmars]

It occurs to me that certain elements of non human intelligences require thorough defining.  After all, we are already theorizing (and marketing) the notion of "artificial" intelligence in machine form.  That alone would make it necessary for certain considerations, such as the idea that any eventual encounters with NHIs may very well be with "machine intelligences" - even if they are only 'representatives' of their creator species... or if by some unimaginable processes it had developed "by natural 'evolutionary' means."

Whatever we "know" as an individual species (or a species full of "individuals") may be parallel to the NHI... or it may not.

Our paradigms, perceptions, precepts, and perspectives may all be uniquely distinct... and they may not.

In such an environment of 'mystery' we need to observe some form of clinical detachment, a re-evaluation of "what is evidently true" and what may not be since such a determination is based solely upon what we can perceive, and completely confounded by what we can't.

I suspect that as a topic of the discussion evolves, we will have to digress into other related subtopics... such as "What if the NHI refuses to accept us as worthy of contact?" or "What constitutes as a "realistic" purpose for contact with a species like ours?"  Should we be enthusiastic, or reticent to pursue such a thing (see debate.)

[jaded]

Defining the NHI is going to rattle our cages for a very long time. Currently I'm fine with "we know it when we see it" so to speak. Obviously pending amending as new information comes to light. 

The ships already sailed as far as the NHI contacting us. 
Altho I don't see being worthy as a criteria. Since at the very least as stated in the Bible numerous times God is of the spiritual realm (non-physical). Just using that as one example. 

Other examples that are common are places like SWR since it's accepted whatever is interacting with people changes it's tactics routinely to stay ahead of the humans. I do actually hate I had to use it as a example, only did cause so many people are familiar with it. 

AI once self aware would definately qualify as well. 
The caveat being it's man-made, where other forms of NHI don't seem to be. 

Altho mostly anticdotal people have experienced NHI one way or another for millennia. 
A quote from a sci-fy story comes to mind. Forgot which one or by what author but the gist was 
"The old gods go away when people forget about them". I would say "old gods = older versions of the NHI. It evolves & changes as we do and manifest's accordingly.

All this is obviously still very open ended but we have to pick a starting point.

[pianopraze]

Higher dimensions makes a lot of sense to me. 

flatland is best tool to understand this I’ve come across.

imagine a flat world where there is no up or down. 2d. Like a sheet of paper. They can not see above or below the paper.

a 3d person standing outside of this world could touch and move in ways unintelligible to a person in the flat world.  We could touch them from above and they could not see us only feel the touch.

or we could stick multiple fingers through the paper appearing to be multiple places at once or disappearing from one location and appearing at another instantaneously. 

As we stick our hand through the paper what they see of us would change shapes, yet they could never truly see our true shape as most of us would not be in their 2d word but above and below it.

this is of course an analogy.

likewise the movement of higher dimensional craft in our 3d world makes no sense as it is moving in higher dimensions as well so our perception is limited and we cannot understand what we are seeing.  They can appear in and out of our reality in ways that make no conventional sense as they are mostly in a higher dimension - only partially in ours. 

they can affect us from higher dimensions without us being able to perceive them except where they are "touching" us.

it explains much that people are reporting.